Curse

Paul Dawg · Apr 08, 2009, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Still wondering why the OP is bringing [unyielding aura (pve)] on a prot monk. Use a more appropriate elite (I recommended [restore condition] so that you can drop the less effective [dismiss condition] or [mend condition]), and, with the remaining slot, use a real res like [rebirth].

FengShuiDove · Apr 08, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Don't be opposed to running Necros as a strong e-management form of another profession, i.e. a Necro running [[Word of Healing] or [[Divert Hexes]. Even [[Healer's Boon] on a Necro can be fantastic since it's already so cheap and the healing boost doesn't vary on Divine Favor. In general, toy around with combinations of strong Necro skills and Monk skills (or Ritualist, if you don't consider that too gimmicky). You should know what good Monk skills are from each line and an appropriate elite. [[Foul Feast] and [[Signet of Lost Souls] are great e-management/support that make use of the Necro primary as well.

Also, Mesmer heroes don't come close to seeing enough play. It's not a team build, but I suggest trying out a domination hexer (think [[Visions of Regret], [[Backfire], some strong interruption) or a [[Tease] Mesmer with /Rt (yes, as listed on PvX) for some core support skills like [[Protective was Kaolai], [[Splinter Weapon (PvE)], etc. Anything wielding those Rit skills will synchronize greatly with a Warrior (and ask your friend to bring [[Great Dwarf Weapon] if possible) for some exciting numbers on your screen and some good enemy teardown.

Daesu · Apr 09, 2009, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Still wondering why the OP is bringing [unyielding aura (pve)] on a prot monk. Use a more appropriate elite (I recommended [restore condition] so that you can drop the less effective [dismiss condition] or [mend condition]), and, with the remaining slot, use a real res like [rebirth].

An elite condition removal is not often used, except in pvp, and special circumstances in PvE. PvE monks have better use of that elite slot than to remove all conditions and can't even self target. Even bringing a necro with Foul Feast would be more useful and most of all, it doesn't take up the elite slot.

Pocketmancer · Apr 09, 2009, 01:46 AM // 01:46

On towards the main topic, I don't actually consider Sabway to be a gimmick team. I do consider Discordway and RoJway to be gimmick teams. Sabway is a bit more balanced than Discordway (albiet weaker). It isn't diversified if that's what you're trying to say though.

On the topic of [[Glyph of Lesser Energy] versus [[Power Drain], I often find GoLE more advantageous for numerous reasons (don't get me wrong, I use Power Drain, too).
-First being that you don't need to spec points (or rather, you can't) to get a lot out of [[Glyph of Lesser Energy]. This allows you to have stronger healing, protection, or divine favor spells.
-[[Glyph of Lesser Energy] also does not require the foe to perform/not perform an action like [[Power Drain] and [[Waste Not, Want Not].
-[[Glyph of Lesser Energy] allows you to save 20 energy max between two spells. [[Power Drain] will go anywhere less than 20. On another note, [[Power Drain] can potentially gain more energy than your max could hold and thus, wasted energy. Heroes will use these interrupts regardless of how close to max energy they have.
-When usually using [[Power Drain], one would have another energy gain skill, too, such as [[Waste Not, Want Not] or [[Leech Signet]. GoLE will only take up one slot and you can place something else more beneficial to the team.
Where [[Glyph of Lesser Energy] has its advantages, its main disadvantage is that a monk primary is forced to be a sub-elementalist. Healing/Protection monks benefit very little from the large majority of the elementalist skill pool and you're essentially limiting any possible form of diversity. However, most Monk skill bars consist of nothing but monk skills anyway (or at least, 7 out of 8 skills are nothing but monk skills) so what the heck.

And on the topic of versatile but synergizing hero setups to bring, I found in another thread here of a Splinter Weapon Paragon that I tried out and found to be excellent. This is definitely a big winner for you consider you're a Warrior, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

I've always liked the paragon Leadership and Motivation skills, but was never that blown away by the Spear skills, which often have better alternatives in other professions. Spear Mastery just eats up more valuable attribute points leaving you with little else for a secondary. Spear paragons also have to spend a lot of time attacking to build up adrenaline, instead of using chants.

[build prof=p/rt moti=12 lead=12 chan=10][Song of Restoration][Ballad of Restoration][Anthem of Flame][Aria of Zeal][Lyric of Zeal][Blazing Finale][Splinter Weapon][Signet of Aggression][/build]
This guy wields a Channeling Rod + a Motivation shield, and is set on passive. You know how when you put [Splinter Weapon] on one of your necros or other heroes, and it never casts it as often as you want? Well, you don't have to worry about that with this guy, he *spams* that skill almost on recharge, much more than any other character I've ever put it on, which makes me very happy.

Regarding ressurection, I thought the builds Konker originally posted were fine without them. A monk should never be handling the res (even if it was something other than [[Rebirth]). Let the non-monk types handle it because res skills generally take a long time to cast. During this long time, your party's going to be missing out on healing/enchants and probably a lot worse off than if you weren't to res that fallen ally, especially in hard mode.

Man, I sound like I'm disagreeing with a lot of things here.

Paul Dawg · Apr 09, 2009, 08:34 AM // 08:34

LOL! I SAID [foul feast] is more effective than any of the condition-removal skills he wanted to use.

And which prot elite do YOU recommend for him? Cuz [unyielding aura] can't be right. I said the two choices are basically [restore condition] and [zealous benediction]. Would love to hear YOUR idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

An elite condition removal is not often used, except in pvp, and special circumstances in PvE. PvE monks have better use of that elite slot than to remove all conditions and can't even self target. Even bringing a necro with Foul Feast would be more useful and most of all, it doesn't take up the elite slot.

Carboplatin · Apr 09, 2009, 03:28 PM // 15:28

It depends on what i am doing, but i too like to bring less popular elites and builds. Lately i've been messing with...

[Tease] and [invoke lightning]

part of the fun is watching how the heros use them imo.

Daesu · Apr 09, 2009, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

LOL! I SAID [foul feast] is more effective than any of the condition-removal skills he wanted to use.

And which prot elite do YOU recommend for him? Cuz [unyielding aura] can't be right. I said the two choices are basically [restore condition] and [zealous benediction]. Would love to hear YOUR idea.

If you are already carry Foul Feast and Infuse Condition, I see no reason to bring restore condition. For Zealous Benediction, heroes dont know how to use the 50% mark to get energy back.

If it is going to be a UA+HB mimicry build then of course you bring UA for stacking the heals with HB. Otherwise UA wouldn't be my first choice of monk elite to bring.

Previously you also suggested Rebirth which you should disable if you carry it, otherwise your monk hero would try to use it during combat and take his own energy to zero. I am starting to like UA as a res too, you get an almost instant res with full health and energy.

Paul Dawg · Apr 10, 2009, 06:49 AM // 06:49

OK, either you're not reading carefully or you're just being argumentative, so this will be my last attempt to explain myself.

He is not bringing [foul feast]. That was MY suggestion. He's not bringing [foul feast] precisely because he wants to bring monk heroes, and you can't put [foul feast] on monk heroes because it's a soul-reaping skill. He wanted to use an inferior condition-removal skill like [dismiss condition] along with [unyielding aura (pve)] as his elite. That's why I suggested [restore condition] and a standard res instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If you are already carry Foul Feast and Infuse Condition, I see no reason to bring restore condition. For Zealous Benediction, heroes dont know how to use the 50% mark to get energy back.

Cherng Butter · Apr 10, 2009, 07:11 AM // 07:11

If you micro Ether Renewal and Glyph of Swiftness on a E/Mo, perhaps you could run a rather effective infuse healer? *shrug* haven't tested

legacyofkain85 · Apr 10, 2009, 09:21 AM // 09:21

I would not use [unyielding aura]unless doing something specific that requires it,i simply don't like it enough despite being a great skill.For general pve i always end u using [word of healing] and a heal/prot bar.Also monk heroes tend to be spammer happy and burn energy quite fast ,they dont know how to make a good use of [glyph of lesser energy]and they also suck at protting.So whenever i want monk prots in mi team i use a necro/mo,or and [ether renewal]ele/mo,and if i really must have a monk hero it always ends up being a woh monk.

Lyphen · Apr 19, 2009, 04:28 PM // 16:28

I commend you for doing this. I'm pretty much in the same boat, and the only PvE skill I ever carry on me is Sunspear Rebirth signet. I just feel so much of the game was trivialized with the introduction of -WAY and PVE skills.

I want a challenge and to have fun, not simply steamroll everything with my 3 necros.

Super Igor · Apr 19, 2009, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyphen

I commend you for doing this. I'm pretty much in the same boat, and the only PvE skill I ever carry on me is Sunspear Rebirth signet. I just feel so much of the game was trivialized with the introduction of -WAY and PVE skills.

I want a challenge and to have fun, not simply steamroll everything with my 3 necros.

you can steamroll everything without 3 necroes. o_O

Daesu · Apr 20, 2009, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

He is not bringing [foul feast]. That was MY suggestion.

Dude, learn to read. I was replying to YOU, not him.

Quote:

He's not bringing [foul feast] precisely because he wants to bring monk heroes, and you can't put [foul feast] on monk heroes because it's a soul-reaping skill. He wanted to use an inferior condition-removal skill like [dismiss condition] along with [unyielding aura (pve)] as his elite. That's why I suggested [restore condition] and a standard res instead

You dont need [restore condition] because there are better choices for an elite. There are lots of non-elite condition removal skills available for a monk, you know.

Super Igor · Apr 20, 2009, 08:32 PM // 20:32

[restore condition] is the best prot elite for pve hero, seriously.

other elites your heroes can run:
[life sheath] - not enough redbarring.
[shield of regeneration] - not enough redbarring.
[shield of deflection] - not enough redbarring.

Super Igor · Apr 20, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You know Igor, I feel compelled to agree with you because people say we have always been arguing with each other. But if I have to agree with you even though I think it is a bad build then I am just not being honest.

post your build.

Quote:

At least with your post just before this one, I can agree with the top half but this build is just too energy draining for one. What happens if you are not fighting casters (or they are dead) but a melee group and you need energy? You have no spells to interrupt and no energy management.

not really energy intensive, all of your spells cost 5 energy, almost constant block, prot spirit you disable and cast manually when energy starts to run low. You dont need more energy management than [power drain] provides you with for this build.
But thats why I dont like mo/me heroes though, the problem you stated above and the fact of killing your attribute spread but I was trying to stick close to the authors original idea.

Quote:

Besides patient spirit there are no direct heals and patient has a 2s delay for heals. Sometimes you just need direct heals on the spot. You also dont need 3 copies of party heals. Heroes also dont use dismiss condition or cure hex as direct heals.

not really a problem, if 2s really do matter in 2 player 6 hero setup then you did something wrong..

Quote:

Also I dont see how your dual UA is any superior to UA+HB mimicry, seems inferior to me. HB stacks with UA for a huge amount of heal. To calculate how much the HB build heals if you cast UA at 14 Divine Favor, just multiply what the spell originally says it heals for by 2.355, round to the nearest whole number, then add 35 for divine favor. Example, Ethereal Light at 14 heal prayers says it heals for 95, so 95x2.355=223.725. Rounded it is 224+35 for Divine Favor in 1/2 seconds for 5 energy. You still lose 2 heroes to damage and the only other reason you said was "bullshit" without explaining why it is not hero-friendly.

Not hero-friendly means heroes have trouble running it, that explains enough.
Have you seen your hero mimic UA by itself? No.
You can micro, but its not worth it since they would still have trouble with these bars and you have to gimp them quite badly to cope with energy issues.

Daesu · Apr 20, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Not hero-friendly means heroes have trouble running it, that explains enough.
Have you seen your hero mimic UA by itself? No.

The answer to that is, yes, heroes do mimic UA by themselves. You also dont need to bring any other monk henchies, unless you need 3 monks just to keep you alive in pve, in that case something is wrong with your build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

[restore condition] is the best prot elite for pve hero, seriously.

If I am considering to bring restore condition on my monk hero, I may as well bring [Peace and Harmony] which has a more general usage and can even self-target. P&H is more useful in condition and hex heavy areas. Also I dont need prot spells for red barring, when I already have enough healing spells. Or you can also use [Divert Hexes] for hex and condition removal and even more health gain.

Super Igor · Apr 20, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The answer to that is, yes, heroes do mimic UA by themselves. You also dont need to bring any other monk henchies, unless you need 3 monks just to keep you alive in pve, in that case something is wrong with your build.

they dont, they use mimic at random.

Also, if you bring two monk heroes (roj aside) to h/h you fail.

Quote:

If I am considering to bring restore condition on my monk hero, I may as well bring [Peace and Harmony] which has a more general usage and can even self-target. P&H is more useful in condition and hex heavy areas. Also I dont need prot spells for red barring, when I already have enough healing spells. Or you can also use [Divert Hexes] for hex and condition removal and even more health gain.

you dont encounter much hex stacking in pve so usage of pnh and divert is very limited, as a condition removal both are pretty bad compared to rc.

Daesu · Apr 20, 2009, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

they dont, they use mimic at random.

Random? No way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiki

Heroes use this skill on their own, but only for a skill they can use. That means, of all available elites around the team, they will copy a skill of an attribute that matches their highest attribute and if they have at least 6 points in that attribute. On the downside, they use Mimicry whenever possible, not necessarily when they or the team needs it.

As for UA, since it is an enchantment that they maintain, as long as it is already maintained, they would not cast it again.

Quote:

you dont encounter much hex stacking in pve so usage of pnh and divert is very limited, as a condition removal both are pretty bad compared to rc.

Condition stacking is also quite limited in pve so non-elite condition removing skills should be enough most of the time too. Either way you look at it, in most pve areas, you dont need an elite condition removal. I would rather use a hybrid, bring WoH, and bring a non-elite condition removal in most general monk hero builds.

Paul Dawg · Apr 21, 2009, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Cute that someone who writes things like "If you are already carry foul feast" is telling ME to learn to read. I know you were replying to me. The sad part is that you didn't even understand what I was saying, and as I said I've given up trying to explain it to you.

Now go back to arguing with Super Igor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Dude, learn to read. I was replying to YOU, not him.

Super Igor · Apr 21, 2009, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Random? No way.

If if it isn't random then what was Dunkoro's logic behind Mimicrying my [moebius strike]?

Quote:

Condition stacking is also quite limited in pve so non-elite condition removing skills should be enough most of the time too. Either way you look at it, in most pve areas, you dont need an elite condition removal. I would rather use a hybrid, bring WoH, and bring a non-elite condition removal in most general monk hero builds.

learn to read..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

[restore condition] is the best prot elite for pve hero, seriously.

is woh a prot elite? is pnh a prot elite? No. so fail less.

Also, condition stacking is by far more common in pve than hex stacking, you rarely run into a mob that only spams one condition against you, they will ususally apply at least two. It's a cheap spell that can keep conditions off you party so if you are looking for a prot bar RC is the way to go.

I use this.

[build prof=mo/e box prot=14 divine=13][reversal of fortune][restore condition][mending touch][guardian][remove hex][protective spirit][aegis][glyph of lesser energy][/build]

Dont like how they use RoF but it makes up for lack of redbarring when there are no condition flying around.